Frank and Db0 on Laws of Logic

A brief discussion between Frank Turek and dbo on the laws of logic on comment section of post here:

db0

I say “by faith” because it contradicts all scientific observation, which demonstrates that an effect cannot be greater than its cause. You can=t give what you haven=t got, yet atheists believe that dead, unintelligent matter has produced itself into intelligent life.

Once again you fall upon the roadblock of Evolution.
Evolution proves something complex can evolve from something simpler.

We are not certain how dead matter turned into organic but there are many theories, some more plausible than others.

What is the source of this immaterial reality known as reason that we are all presupposing, utilizing in our discussions, and accusing one other of violating on occasion?

Reason exists as a result of a sufficiently complex brain.

If there is no God and we are nothing but chemicals, why should we trust anything we think, including the thought that there is no God?

Because it’s proven useful.

Frank
The brain accesses reason but is not the source of reason. What is the source of reason?

So you believe atheism because it is useful, not because you can know it to be true. Is that what you’re saying?

db0

The brain accesses reason but is not the source of reason. What is the source of reason?

The Brain is the source of reason along with the rest of our mental faculties. I am not certain what you mean that it “accesses” reason.

So you believe atheism because it is useful, not because you can know it to be true. Is that what you’re saying?

That was not your question.
You asked “Why should we trust anything we think” and I answer: “because trusting in what we think has proven useful overall”

As a matter of fact, I do not “believe in atheism”. I just don’t believe that any gods exist.

Frank
If there were no human brains, there would still be the laws of logic. Human brains have the ability to access or use the laws of logic, but they do not determine the laws of logic. They exist immaterially beyond our minds. By the very laws of logic we are discussing, if you don’t believe in any gods, then you are an atheist. My question is, if there is no God (or gods as you say), then what is the source of these immaterial laws?

db0

If there were no human brains, there would still be the laws of logic.

Ok, before I answer, please define “laws of logic”.
I did not bring “laws of logic” into the discussion (you may not have noticed that this was Chicken Girl’s reply, not mine) and it is not part of my argument.

Nevertheless, if I were to replace “Logic” with “Mathematics” in your question I would say that they did not come from anyone.
I would assume that the ability to grasp mathematics is also a result of our brain complexity.
Yes, mathematical rules are discovered but that does not imply a creator.

Frank
We are using the laws of logic, for example:
1) The law of identity (A is A)
2) The law of the excluded middle (either A or non-A)
3) The law of non-contradiction (opposite ideas cannot both be true at the same time in the same sense)

These are the first principles of all thought. The laws of logic are to thinking and reasoning to what your eyes are to seeing. They are immaterial laws independent of our minds. So even if there were no human beings, that would not affect the laws of logic. Before humans, a creature would either be, say, a T-Rex or a non-T Rex. In other words, the laws of logic are independent of our “brain complexity.” Our brain complexity may be how we KNOW the laws of logic, but they do not EXPLAIN the EXISTENCE of the laws of logic.

How can these immaterial laws exist in an atheistic universe were only materials exist? What is the cause of these orderly immaterial laws?

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